DSoTM Time - Past, Present, and Future

Has anyone checked to see how the DVD-Audio version of DSoTM syncs w/ OZ? I don't have a copy of OZ to try it out ...runtime of the DVD-A version of DSoTM is 43:06 whatcha think? Third roar?

So, back in December, when this thread was current, I found that version, the DVD-Audio version, of DSotM. I finally listened to it the other night. It's funny because for Christmas I also got a copy of the SACD version of DSotM. But I listened to the DVD-A version rather than SACD, because my DVD player (which supposedly does all of the various formats) will only output the audio from SACDs over the analog connections, none of which are connected. I don't quite get that, why it wouldn't output over the digital connections, and am very annoyed at the idea of getting more cables, especially when it means 5 instead of 1. So, anyway... I did listen to the DVD-A version. It was pretty kewl. I was a bit thrown off at first by the different mixing... but after a while, I have to say, I liked it.

I'd add my recommendation to laggytoad's.

peace,
--mj
arkiver

The Magic Theatre
for madmen only
Price of admittance your mind
Not for everybody.

I think you actually mean the SACD (SuperAudio CD) version. I thought that was the only "hi def audio" version of DSotM out. I know that version was significantly remixed, so that possibly altered running times slightly at least...

There don't seem to be many experimenters with hi-def, audio or video, really, in synching yet. From what I've read, the hi-def audio stuff has mostly sunk (too expensive, too many people tired of "rebuying" old albums). And hi-def video... I think the new cabling standards and receivers are going to limit significantly synching opportunities...

peace,
--mj
arkiver

The Magic Theatre
for madmen only
Price of admittance your mind
Not for everybody.

I'm referring to the DVD-Audio version that plays in any DVD player. It's a 4.1 surround supposedly mixed by Alan Parsons from the original tapes... either way it is VERY good but I think you can only get it off BitTorrent or similar.
Here's some info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=655946

It definitely appears to be a DVD-A all right... however, of questionable origin. So, that means you're on your own as far as tracking it down and buying it. I think they used to call these ROIO in the floyd newsgroups (Record Of Indeterminate Origin?). It sounds interesting... and I know I was always kinda annoyed at the record labels for this kind of thing. They did the same thing with the WALL movie soundtrack (which I picked up as an ROIO).

Frustrating that older mixes, like Alan Parsons' surround mix, exist, but that the record companies sit on them, like a troll on his gold.

peace,
--mj
arkiver

The Magic Theatre
for madmen only
Price of admittance your mind
Not for everybody.

From some rough tests comparing an old dsotm cd with the new 5.1 dsotm is bizarre to say the least. To test, both were loaded side by side in a wave editor, and synced up at the beginning for starters. Very soon they went out of sync. At one point, the 5.1 is lagging, then slowly gets faster, and is then ahead of the old cd. This happens during one song alone. The 5.1 may not be the best version for DSoTR. Besides that, the mix seems flat and has lost a lot of the dynamics. It's as if the whole mix was run through a limiter or compressor.

by 5.1, do you mean the SACD version?

scf

I should clarify that the 5.1 was from a previously recorded sync, prs, as stegokitty's site calls it. I don't know which dsotm release that was from. This was heard on a stereo system and not a 5.1 system, so I should not have implied it was a bad mix. It may sound incredible on a 5.1 system. I can't say for sure if this was from the SACD, but my guess is that it is. The SACD 30th anniv release does contain the orginal stereo mix also. There are some interesting reviews on amazon about this release. One thing very noticable about some of the 5.1 songs, is added effects. During The Great Gig In The Sky, you can plainly hear an effect on the man's speaking voice.

The timings I mentioned, though, are very strange compared to an old dsotm cd. Either pf released a version of dsotm with incredibly different timings of some songs, or the makers of sync deliberately manipulated some of the timings of some songs to "fit" their syncs. Until I get a new version of dsotm to compare, I'll have to give pf the benefit of the doubt and conclude that the sync makers manipulated the songs. This does not change my view that some of the dsotm releases have different timings, mainly the gap between the 1st side and the second side. If pk DID manipulate the timings of some of their songs, then there may be at least 3 different stages of releases.

Thanks for the information. I'd like to know how it varies from the Gulch-bells backwards and then forwards. I have a CD time of 7:53 as the place for this particular match. Not sure which version I have without checking... am at work now.

baker.

The time I have from an old cd for the Gulch-bells is about 7:51.845, zoomed way in to get that number. So that's interesting. Did you rip the whole cd to single file, or did you get that time some other way.

The cd I use was ripped to a single file, and the file has a running time of 42:55.240.

I was not expecting to get different times pre - Money. I always suspected that the gap between side 1 and side 2 of the ALBUM has been manipulated in the different dsotm editions, but maybe there are other differences too. So to compare, we would need to use roughly the same process to get the times. Being that this is all high tech research and stuff.

Hi.

No high tech stuff on my end. Basically I'm just looking for an original cuing place for each version of DSOTM. The version I have -- still haven't checked which one -- you start immediately at the end of the 3rd lion roar of Leo at the beginning of the movie to hit the Gulch-bells synchronization correctly (that has to be exact, I feel). I reach this point at 7:53 according to the clock on my CD player, and I think I've checked this time with several CD players. Been a while, though, and could be closer to 7:52, as you said.

It's not that big of a dealie what the actual time is -- yet -- but just where to look for an original cue.

As I remember, the problems with variable times crops up in the 1st track, Speak to Me/Breathe, specifically where the heartbeats begin at the start of the song (varies from version to version?). And then, as you said, the place where the album flips over (progression of suite of songs stops from side 1) and Money begins.

All for now.
Thanks.
baker b.

I'd like to add that I speak here of the Kansas part of DSOTR, and that the Oz part (second side of album, if you will), provides additional hurdles for people wanting to view the synch the same way.

Interesting comment about songs slowing down and/or speeding up between different versions.

My new question:

Take away any differences in the actual start of the album (kicking in of heartbeats at beginning), and also the variation in the length of the gap between Gig and Money, what other variations occur between different CD versions of DSOTM?

You'd then probably have to measure the "1st side" of the CDs in terms of where the sound begins and ends (beginning of sound in Speak to Me; end of sound in Gig), and not from the beginning of the Speak to Me/Breathe track to the end of the Gig track.

Does that make sense? Maybe not.
Thanks again,
baker.

oops. I top posted a repy to your last post.

That's fine. Thanks for the additional comments.

So can we then agree that if you synch up Gulch's appearance right with start of bells ringing in Time, then you have at least the Kansas part of the synch basically set up right?

Oz part presents additional probems, we both agree as well. The transition from Kansas to Oz should basically be the same as the transition from side 1 (Gig) to side 2 (Money) of the original album. Not many would disagree with that. This is actually a transition into the *Munchkinland* part of Oz. A transition out of Munchkinland, in my belief, should occur similarly right with the transition from the song Us and Them to the next song of DSOTM, Any Color You Like. Solve that little problem and I think you've solved the rest of way the synch is best set up, perhaps.

I personally don't run Dark Side of the Rainbow past the 1st play of Dark Side of the Moon.

Thanks again,
baker.

QUOTE
If you're not familiar, a pregap is the amount of time a cd is set to pause between songs. For DSoTm, this really only matters at the beginning of Speak To Me, and the beginning of Money.

If this cd is played, then Kansas syncs up after the third roar.
If the whole cd is dumped to a file, and then played with winamp or whatever, Kansas syncs up following the third roar and during the fade to black. It is a slight delay, but very noticable.

Either way, the Oz part does not sync up according to the list of syncs, when it is run straight through. On this cd, Money starts later, which may only be from a pregap setting. It is slightly different, but interestingly the transition from Us and Them to Brain Damage coincides with the exact scene change. So to get this old cd to sync up to the Oz part, according to the sync lists, a slight pause is needed.

These sync times, out of Kansas and into Oz/munchkinland, of different Dsotm versions are very close, but not the same. There may be anwhere between a second and several seconds.

Even with these changes, the transitions, out of Kansas - into Oz/munchkinland, out of Oz/munchkinland - into to the scarecrow scene, will pretty much sync up. I've seen some syncs where Money starts right past when the door opens. On this old cd, Money starts as the scene has passed through the doorway, which is a big time difference.

The main thing here is that certain of the Oz/munchkinland syncs may be off by that second or so difference. Most notably is the "round and round, ... and round" sync with the slippers. On this old cd, it is way off. Did you ever notice this sync with your cd, right on? If so, then we may have discovered at least two dsotm's with different timimgs.

You're either reading my mind or reading my DSOTR web page! Yeah, I think the round and round and round bit has to synch up in order for the Oz part to work... a big moment in it in my opinion.

When I discovered DSOTR in 1997, what you had was an older version of the Wizard of Oz video widely circulated that had some additional time quirks. The door opens about 1 1/2 seconds faster in this older version, which is easily identified usually, because you have a black and white kansas instead of the now standard sepia-toned kansas. Then you have another shortening of, I think, about 3 secs. in the shift between Munchkinland and the cornfield scene. Let me check my site to see if I remember those times correctly...

http://breton.home.boone.net/darksideoftherainbow.html

yeah, I remembered correctly. So one of the little additional synchy things here is that diff. versions of DSOTM and diff. versions of Wizard of Oz refract from each other at the very same point in Dark Side of the Rainbow, or the shift between Kansas and Oz in the movie, and the shift between sides 1 and 2 of DSOTM. Interesting, eh?

I prefer The Wizard of Oz run with this older version of Wizard of Oz, which was, as far as I can tell, the "official" version from around 1949 - 1989 or so, or until the original sepia toned masters were re-discovered and made available on the 50th Anniv. DVD and VHS tape.

It's also amazing to think now that in 1997, very few DVDs were being sold; the market was almost totally dominated by VHS tapes still. In less than 10 years, VHS tapes of new releases are basically nonexistent.

Let me know if you have further ideas. If there are speed differences in the block of songs making up side 1 of DSOTM, I'd like to know about it. Perhaps the best way to test is to make sure that the bells sound off in any tested version at the same time, and then trace back to a synchronized starting point and let 'em rip. Any variation will sound as an echo and then, if it gets more out of line, a different rhythm... you know what I mean.

baker.

baker b.

Here are some times on this old cd. Also interesting is there is a "Made in the U.K." and a Harvest logo stamped on the cd.

Total running time of the whole cd ripped to one file: 42:55.240.
Time begins at about 7:51.845
Money begins at 19:25.311 - 315, though the bar graphs begin to grow at about 19:25.296 or so. This 296 may be where the join was made on the original mix between the 1st and 2nd side. These very small increments, 296 - 315, are most likely not that important. Anything greatly outside and there is an obvious difference, but more important is the "25"th second.
Any Colour You Like begins at about 33:38.48.

I need to get a new DSoTM, anything from the the total silver pyramid cover and up, to compare the times unless someone happens to post theirs.

This is off the topic, but I just noticed the words "Behind the moon", which Dorothy says before Over The Rainbow.