What would it take to convince you that filmmakers and musicians often create intentional syncs?

(can't take my own advice... still)....

Jay,
Filmsyncs was quoting me when he used the "nothing even remotely on that level" line. The original was in reference to what filmsyncs had posted as evidence for intent... that so far, no one in this particular intent thread had posted "hard" (or at least concrete) evidence towards any particular synch being intentional, so in the abstract, the discussion tends towards intellectual navel-gazing.

Only my opinion... and that's not meant to be particularly harsh or anything. I've just never found the intent discussion that interesting really. People will tend to believe what they want, even in the absence (or presence, for that matter) of evidence that contradicts their version. We all have that confirmation bias. And that's why the intent debate really isn't that interesting to me. If you're convinced intent is there, there's very little someone can say to dissuade you. And on the flip side, it's also difficult to "prove" to someone that evidence backs up your intent theory.

And, to filmsyncs, the main reason I didn't take you up on a list of my own favorite films is that honestly I was hoping you'd just offer something that "proves" intent on its own, regardless of whether or not it is or is not one of my favorites. Again, I'm looking for something solid and documentary, if we're going to continue the discussion. To again rely on my Echoes/JaBtI example, the bits I always choose to pick on backing up intent in that case are pretty firmly documented (you can find several sites that have recorded those original, outer-space lyrics... the Kubrick-Floyd stuff is talked about in the Saucerful of Secrets biography, etc.). There's no equivalent even for DSotR in the documentary record (no quotes from Roger Waters professing a love of all things Oz, etc.).

And again, if you want to overcome my skepticism, that this is all just humans' natural pattern-finding, or the cultural contexts we're talking about, then THAT's what is needed.

I have to agree that overall this discussion has been fairly positive... it's just that the whole intent discussion tends to be the fors vs. the againsts, and never the twain shall meet.

peace,
--mj
arkiver

Oh....well I thought that was a particular rye comment to make. Admitedly, I am feeling a bit sensitive today! My mistake then.

filmsyncs,

So to turn it around, for all of those who believe in intent, what would it take to convince you that for the vast majority of synchs, there just isn't any intent?

It has certainly seemed to me that those who believe in intent have a lot more invested in the idea, and the belief, than those who don't. Maybe that's a misperception on my part, but that's how it has seemed. And furthermore, it has seemed that those who believe in intent don't really accept the possibility that intent just isn't there. And that's the main problem I have with the discussion. If the non-intent'ers accept that they could be convinced, if the proper evidence were put forth, and the intent'ers won't accept that intent isn't there, then it basically becomes the intent'ers hammering at the non-intent'ers until they give up (or get bored with the discussion). That's just seemed counterproductive to me.

I don't say that to minimize anyone's beliefs on intent really... you're certainly welcome to believe what you want. But all of those bits you just brought up, about music over music, that would certainly seem to back up the idea that its our systems of music and film in general that have so much in common that make synching happen as often as it does... and that continues to be the simplest explanation for the vast majority of synchs.

I guess I find the whole intent discussion a bit one-sided. So, to turn it around, for intent'ers... what would it take to get you to give up on intent across synchs (I'm not going to suggest, because I think it's basically not true, that there aren't some synchs that are intentional, so I'm talking the wider array of synchs, not any specific one).

peace,
--mj
arkiver

Well, to the specific question you raised, what would it take to convince me that the majority of syncs are unintentional ...

my answer is ... that IS what I believe. The majority of known syncs are unintentional.

I've one secret, I'm not here.

just to clarify...

by: "some synchs that are intentional"

I really mean a very very small #, rather than some, as in a substantial amount. Again, I tend to think that intent is very rare. Since the discussion here seems more geared towards intent at least being more common.... the line above was really meant to exclude the small # that might be "provable", like Jupiter and Beyond (or others that I may not be as up on).

peace,
--mj
arkiver

Ah, I see.

Well I can understand your viewpoint. If I only had what is posted on the Internet (not that I'm that knowledgeable about what's out there) I would think intended syncs are quite uncommon.

But, candidly I have my own research to go on. I'm a logical sorta guy. It took a lot of convincing for me too.

I didn't even know about other syncs. I figured it was just one director and one film and even then I didn't fully believe much of it. Then I thought it was only one musical group and several directors. Then it became several composers and most directors.

So, it's gone from uncommon to something more. I would be lying if I soft pedaled it and called it less.

Quite frankly, I have so many directors doing it you wouldn't believe it (and nor should you based on the evidence at hand).

Musicians, nothing like the number of filmmakers but enough important composers over time that make it significant.

So, the good news is that there is a lot to explore and I hope that I can move people a bit toward the middle. Not just the folks that don't see much intent but also folks that see intent where there is so little to base it on.

I hope that if some folks see some more intended syncs they will get a better appreciation for them so that they will be a bit more discerning in the syncs that they post.

I've one secret, I'm not here.

That's the part of your argument that I'm not getting. I mean without something to back it up, an example even of "intentional synchronicity", then all we're really doing here is discussing in the abstract. Intellectual navel-gazing, as it were.

And in the abstract, I just can't see intent being anything other than RARE (all caps). Like the proverbial blue moon. Maybe even rarer. I used the example of Jupiter and beyond because I think there's comparatively solid coincidental evidence at least on that one... but even that's fairly tentative. And in the 13 years of running the Synchronicity Arkive, I have yet to run across one that even approaches that level for a strong case for intent.

Again, that's not said to diminish anyone's beliefs... but let's distinguish belief from what's PROVABLE. If you want to dig into this and try to convince the "non-intent'ers", then you have to offer a little something more than "in my research." What research? What films/albums? What documented links are there that make a case for a synch being intentional?

Because I'm still not seeing anything there that even remotely undermines the argument that it's just the overall cultural context, the music system, the editing style that pervades our human culture, that makes synching "happen."

There's no THERE there...

peace,
--mj
arkiver

Well fair enough ... but it's also fair enough just to ask you to wait for my book.

But, I'm willing to meet people in the middle. I'll release some things before publication for two reasons:

1. a bit of publicity can't hurt much
2. help people out that want to be helped

But to point 2, that's what the director of Envy is trying to do. Give you some clues so you can figure things out for yourself ... often more rewarding than just be handled answers.

Do you know what films the director is referencing in the film ENVY, particularly the crashing merry-go-round? If not, ask a friend who knows films. Armed with that and what I've already shared you could find your own syncs.

Want to put me to the test? Maybe I can help.

Arkiver,

List five or six all-time favorite films you love. Those you would dearly love to know a deliberate sync to. I'll see what I can do.

I've one secret, I'm not here.

It's certainly fair enough to ask us to wait for your book... but I'd just point out, you brought up the topic here, so it's also fair enough to at least point out that there hasn't been much substance to the discussion (at least in terms of evidence).

Here's the thing... intent, or deliberation, is actually (for me) completely irrelevant to my enjoyment of a synch. It's just not a factor. So... in terms of your challenge, the five or six all time films... I could give you a list of films maybe, but that's not really the question I'm asking.

Your Envy example kind of gets at what I'm talking about. To me, that implies CORRELATION, not CAUSATION. I'm sure you can find all sorts of connections between actors or some of the behind the scenes folks. That's sort of a self-selecting population though of people, in that they are all in the film industry. That still doesn't imply in any substantive way that the director or creator is deliberately making those connections.

All I'm really looking for, at this point, is just one example with some evidence for CAUSATION. I'll admit, not even Jupiter and Beyond really passes that test... but again, it's the closest thing I've ever found in 13+ years of running the Arkive. And those links are: 1) Kubrick had some conversations with Floyd about scoring, 2) PF were on record "regretting" that they hadn't done a score for Kubrick, 3) a biography on pink floyd actually referenced the end of 2001. So, that to me establishes a PF-Kubrick link, and further links Floyd to the end of 2001. Now did they do a synch to that? Well, obviously not everyone sees it (re: Karl).... but enough do that that particular one seems to move out into a more easily defined "intent" space.

Got one like that? 'cuz that's what it would take. Without that, it just seems that any intent theory is filtering things to fit, rather than finding evidence that already fits.

So... not that this isn't interesting and all, but it doesn't really seem to be moving the debate forward. And that's again the problem I have with the intent discussion. It just strikes me as shades of "Jesus' image in a dorritos chip" or something like that. It's just not that interesting to me.... so... barring something that does make it interesting... I'm thinking I'll let this one continue without me. Again, none of what I'm saying here is meant to in any way disparage what folks might believe about intent... but I do mean to distinguish between belief and what can be proven.

peace,
--mj
arkiver

"CAUSATION. I'll admit, not even Jupiter and Beyond really passes that test... but again, it's the closest thing I've ever found in 13+ years of running the Arkive. And those links are: 1) Kubrick had some conversations with Floyd about scoring, 2) PF were on record "regretting" that they hadn't done a score for Kubrick, 3) a biography on pink floyd actually referenced the end of 2001. So, that to me establishes a PF-Kubrick link, and further links Floyd to the end of 2001. Now did they do a synch to that? Well, obviously not everyone sees it (re: Karl).... "

Well as you've already mentioned the so-called evidence (if true) is weak.

So, in summary what you would like is for artists to explain themselves and their work. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. What artist explains their art? There is also the old expression, trust the art not the artist.

Your opinion is your opinion but I want to point out the solution you would be happy with is an illogical loop. Can't trust the artist but you want confirmation from the artists. Catch-22.

I have read many PF posters that don't see much in the Echoes/2001 sync. I think it's fine, but it really is only the first set of lyrics that have anything to do with what's going on on-screen. So what do the other lyrics sync to?

Or maybe you should just wait for Pink Floyd to tell you.

I've one secret, I'm not here.

JaBtI is more of a mood/atmospheric type sync to me while still having quite a few lyrical sync occurences. There are other sync types then just lyrical ones.

Exactly. I personally find this type of syncs more satisfying and with better longevity.

Actually also via the Pink Floyd biography, that the original lyrics for Echoes, which can still be heard on some ROIO (Records of Illegitimate Origin), were outer space focused.

Yes, those links are tentative. But those links are in the documentary evidence at least.

And no, I don't need the artists to TELL me. I just need to see something solid. There were several theories pitched about DSotR, that the cover of Pulse "confirmed" the intentional connection. All of them have had simpler explanations out of Pink Floyd history. But that at least was something comparatively concrete. And again, you've offered nothing even remotely on that level.

Breaking my own promise here... but the Echoes links are pretty well justified, and I couldn't let that one pass. I'll go back to lurk mode on this thread now... honestly it just hasn't offered anything new or startling to back up intent. Humans are natural pattern finders, we find patterns in everything... clouds... dorrito chips... and matching up music and movies. None of that implies intent.

peace,
--mj
arkiver

You make some good points, but I have to disagree about the lyrics. All of the lyrics in schoes are a beautiful poetic expression of the ideas of the end of 2001. I can't help but thinking now about the monolith as "the ablatross" and star gate as a "million bright ambassadors of morning." The second set are slightly more obtuse, but the reference is still clear. "And so I throw the windows wide and call to you across the sky..."

To convince me that synchs are not intentional? Hmmm. I need a clark bar.

Pink Floyd would need to publically dismiss intent for "Dark Side of Oz". WAIT, they did that. OHhhhh, I'm melting. Now I realize I cannot be convinced of chance even when confronted with the evidence. I hate to admit it, but I cannot be conviced of the possibility of non-intent. I never thought about it that way.

I will have to accept that some people think that synchs are not intentional. I'll have to watch your narrated version of "Echoes/JaBtI". (sheepishly, I never watched it because it is clear to me that it is not intentional.)

By the way, private message response me here about my Synchronicity Question from last week (was it lost in the nether world?) unless you want to add it later. I realize you are busy.

"Rainbows and waterfalls
Run through my mind."

The Brothers Johnson "Strawberry Letter 23"

Hmmm... That is an interesting idea.

What would be the meaning in it though except for more artistic eg? haven't we had enough. Not that it isn't good in itself. But the word. The Word. Synchronicity. SYNCHRONICITY. It is not of the artists' doings!

S-Y-N-C-H-R-O-N-I-C-I-T-Y